[黑魂]魂学求助,关于物品介绍这一机制

  • T
    Ton
    最近闲着没事看龙崎的魂学视频,又想起困扰我多年的一个问题,那就是魂系列的物品介绍都是谁写的。
    当然从现实的角度来看都是开发者写的,但魂系列的一个特色是大部分游戏机制都和故事设定有关,而不是单纯的游戏机制,比如不死人死后从篝火复活这个设定。
    物品介绍可以算是魂系列中相当重要的一个游戏机制,可以说是魂学的基础,但我没找到关于它本身的研究。
    比如它是由何人撰写?
    它是否是魔法或奇迹的产物?
    如果是又是哪一流派的魔法或奇迹?
    这样的研究。

    我个人冒出的第一个想法是物品描述应该是属于奇迹,因为游戏中另一个和文字有关的机制“建言”对应的是“寻求建言”这一奇迹。
    但为所有物品记录描述这件事比起圣职者更像是学者会干的事,于是脑补出了一个上到神兵利器下到屎块都会去研究和记录的神通广大的学者
    另一种可能是和建言一样有复数个不同时空下的作者,但如果描述出现冲突会怎么办?而且和建言不同,玩家代表的广大不死人是没这个能力的,那又是哪个群体拥有这一能力?

    想来想去还是觉得物品描述除了单纯的游戏机制以外别的什么也不是,但这样又觉得很别扭,因为物品描述的文本多少能看出一些撰写者的表达欲和个性。从来没见过有魂学家讨论过这点
  • 枕头人
    看语气,像是不死人本身对于该物品的“理解”或者“笔记”。
    很多东西介绍很简单就是“某某的武器”“盛产于某地”“有什么作用”“怎么用”之类简明介绍,主角能根据既有经验和旅行见闻进行判断。
  • w
    wwz11s
    我看血源的访谈时说都是宫崎老贼老贼写的
  • j
    joker8023
    要不是2代物品瞎几把爆,否则可以考究出更多准确的依据
  • 巨魔已被忠诚
    宫崎英高,多数关键道具和剧情BOSS物品都是他本人亲自写的
  • 酒巻真希菜
    只狼访谈里有提过 以前除了魂2 基本都是宫崎写的,只狼开始他放手了
  • n
    nws
    现实中是宫崎写的,世界设定、剧情等都是他想好,然后给每个物品写介绍。

    游戏中,应该并没有提到这点,应该没有这个设定,也不太可能有,因此这个就是游戏机制的一部分。
  • 若菜
    每个武器都附带说明书、就像你说的是靠奇迹之类的铭刻在上面的?很多武器明显都是前主人死之后才有的介绍,谁写的介绍真的非常迷
  • 莉拉厨
    哦,五个里面三个都不看帖就回复的是把
    我是觉得老贼应该没有考虑到这一层(也许是考虑过然后放弃了),毕竟你能看得到的物品介绍不死人主角是看不到的,这种meta要素和黑魂的世界观极度不符,所以干脆也不解释这件事了。

    -- 来自 能看大图的 Stage1官方 Android客户端
  • n
    nws
    这个说法有点不合理的是,如果见到一个NPC,什么都不知道什么也不问直接砍死,获得的物品介绍还是会有他的名字和相关介绍
  • C
    Cirn09
    因为游戏主角是多周目玩家,在一次次轮回中已经将游戏的一切都研究透了(
  • n
    nice女武神
    楼主问的是游戏里 这些介绍 不死人怎么知道的 是写在物品上 还是直接到不死人的脑中还是...
  • S
    Swanfal
    不懂的设定,要学会回避问题,不要挖设定挖上头什么都指望老贼又有留一手
    魂的摄像机是谁的视角?我「扮演」的角色砍死了Boss,我为什么可以看到「我」的背后?Galgame的插图是谁的视角?小说的文本是谁写的?很多东西纠结起来就没完了。
    你说的这东西就是和「黑暗之魂的摄像机是谁的视角」一样的存在。它是游戏和你的一个接口,是为了给你信息,或者说为了能让你玩得动这个游戏而存在的,正如同游戏内的摄像机一样,而不是游戏世界本身的组成部分。
  • h
    hshiki
    从叙事角度来看,我倾向于是画外音,你在翻开一个武器的介绍时,有个神秘人讲给玩家的你听的。
    关于游戏文本中的韵笔和游戏世界的关系,我一直想写点东西分析一下,没找到合适的角度就坑了……
  • 女反派
    游戏世界里没有这个说明介绍,这个说明跟“rb翻页”,“a确定”是一个体系的
  • 飞灾
    于是有个问题比较有意思了

    很多人坚持认为魂系列的剧情原案是用英**的,然后才翻译成日文

    那么,宫崎老贼能用英文写剧情吗?
  • p
    pgain2004
    你还可以问,为什么角色拿到新武器立刻就会相关用法,甚至懂得形态相近武器的不同/特殊战技。
  • P
    Pettabuz
    说起这个,日本游戏经常有游戏中人物告诉你按A可以怎样怎样按B可以怎样怎样的(比如任天堂的很多游戏、逆转裁判、大神等等
  • R
    Raumanzug
    非要纠结的话,加上死亡和传送loading时会随机给你看物品说明,我倾向这是世界本身破碎的记忆。不死人或者说玩家的不死人有主动从相应的物品上面获取相应的信息的能力,而在死后重生和传送这种身不由己的时候就会被混乱地灌入,正好不死人这个设定本身也和记忆相关。
  • a
    alleriawr9
    这很合理啊,玩家是玩家,不死人是不死人,玩家操纵不死人,仅此而已。
    绝大多数RPG游戏本来就会出现超出角色理解的教学内容,这是游戏系统告知玩家的,和角色无关。

    -- 来自 能搜索的 Stage1官方 Android客户端
  • y
    ybfelix
    不死人在这个世界里本来“应该有”的记忆,也没有全都传达给玩家啊。叙事和角色不是处处重合
  • A
    ASLOP
    是不死人根据自己的经验,以及环境,他人等等研究出来的吧,其实不死人所知未必有玩家的界面介绍那么清楚,不死人只是大概知道是怎么回事,物品介绍的文字还是偏向服务玩家更多一些,体现出来的就是更客观更详细的描述
  • 朝日Asahi
    认真你就输了

    —— 来自 samsung SM-N9600, Android 10上的S1Next-鹅版v2.3.0
  • 女反派
    确实,不过魂毕竟在这一块有追求,这类更像教学的放在箴言里,也能看成是教你,让你回忆起某些动作
    纯UI的东西和说明就是另一套了吧
  • n
    nukacolamania
    NieR 2里面调个屏幕亮度能给你融合进世界观里
  • z
    zhouaa
    武器故事不止这一个游戏有 只是游戏性 没有世界观融入要素 醒醒
  • S
    Swanfal
    有游戏愿意弄,并不代表所有游戏都愿意弄,以及已经弄了。有游戏事先做了这些解释,也并不代表你就可以合理地跑到其他游戏要求这些解释。
  • B
    Bernoulli
    不死人自带鉴定术,拿到物品自动过检定。
  • 大蒜鸭
    When FromSoftware creative directorHidetaka Miyazakibegan development on acclaimed action-RPGDemon’s Souls, his love of western fantasy literature made him determined to cast British actors for the parts. This ambition would eventually lead him to UK-based localisation partner Frognation, whose sterling reputation and ability to handle voice recording in addition to translation made it an ideal collaborator. The firm would go on to localiseDark Soulstoo, and while Miyazaki was in London recently overseeing a voice recording session for the bonus material onDark Souls: Prepare To Dieedition for PC, we sat down with him and Frognation translator Ryan Morris to discuss the process, and value, of localisation.
    Was any ofPrepare To Die's bonus content existing material that didn’t get used in the console release?
    Hidetaka Miyazaki
    It was a while afterDark Soulswas finished and on sale that the idea for the PC version came about. So it’s all new. We felt we’d put everything we had intoDark Soulswhen it came out; it was the perfect state of the game. It was actually quite difficult to come up with new ideas, as it was a new project.
    How is your English? Do comprehension issues ever hinder your ability to judge how pleased you are with drafts ofDark Souls’ localisation?
    Hidetaka MiyazakiI’m not competent in my verbal abilities at English, but my reading and writing are ok. BecauseDark Soulsisn’t the kind of game that has a huge volume of text, I’m able to go over it closely. With Ryan and [his staff] working on the drafts and being involved very early in the process, there have never been problems and I have a lot of confidence in them to do their part in making it all work. And it helps that Ryan is a gamer himself and understands what needs to be explained or foreshadowed in dialogue.
    You’ve spoken at length about your love of Western fantasy literature. And Ryan, you’ve been a fan of Japanese culture from an early age. Does that reciprocal cross-cultural interest aid the localisation process?
    Ryan MorrisIt’s much more than you usually get. There are a lot of cases where clients are not aware of, or interested in, the fact that you need to have that sort of dialogue to really get it done well. There are a lot of times where we just have to go with text and not enough context and ask questions through email, and not get satisfactory responses. It comes down to a lack of understanding on the client’s part about what needs to go into a localisation if you really want to do it right. There are a lot of good translators out there who aren’t provided with enough context to do the job properly.
    Does the sparseness of dialogue add extra pressure to the localisation effort, since each line has to carry more weight in conveying story and gameplay direction?
    HMOne of the goals of theDemon’s Soulsconcept was to tell more with less, and so the sparse dialogue becomes very important. We did our best with the localisation. I’m not confident that I’ve perfected this method of storytelling. There are probably things that weren’t clear enough, or could’ve been done more effectively. When I was young and reading fantasy novels – and this is at an age where I could only understand maybe half of what I was reading – there was an allure to not knowing entirely what was going on. So I had this idea that perhaps there would be some way to create that kind of feeling in a game. My method of storytelling comes from that inspiration, from the shadowy parts of a story or a legend that you can’t make out.
    From Software’s Hidetaka Miyazaki (left) and Frognation’s Ryan Morris began working together when the director decided he wanted a UK-based localisation firm forDemon’s Souls
    Many studios working on RPGs will employ a person to keep track of continuity in the game’s story. Games that stretch out over several entries might even have a so-called bible that lays everything out. Do you have a lore bible for theSoulsgames?
    HMIt does exist. I create the whole story and worldview so it’s a very shorthand, rough document of my own. It’s inside my computer and it also includes photographs of whiteboard layouts from the FromSoftware meeting room, but it’s mostly text. I really like reading that type of background thing, like if you can get your hands on the bible for this or that, I really like that kind of document.
    Is that something he shared with you as a contextual aid during the localisation process?
    RMI saw some early documents.
    HMI’m embarrassed to show it to anybody. It’s too rough: it reveals too much about me.
    When did the ideas that ultimately becameDemon’s Soulsbegin bubbling up?
    HMThe overarching theme is something that I’ve always had. It’s hard to put a date on it because it’s so general. Probably around university age, maybe high school, when I became able to read the more difficult fantasy properly. I love to read the backstory documents of Rune Quest and Lovecraft.
    What about Game Of Thrones?
    HMI really love it. I’ve always been such a huge fan of George R.R. Martin that it overwhelms me. His approach to fantasy is kind of like the Romance Of Three Kingdoms, the Chinese historical-political drama, which I’m a fan of as well. The political elements are a lot of fun, and the drama is done really well too.
    RMHe bought the Game Of Thrones Blu-ray in Vegas! The TV drama hasn’t been translated to Japanese yet.
    Political drama is obviously harder to pull off in a game, as it’s less action-orientated.
    HMThere are different types of fantasy, ones that are better told in games and others that would be better in a drama. That political human drama – the relationships between people and stuff – is better suited to a book. I don’t think it would be possible to tell that story with a game, or at least I wouldn’t want to attempt it.
    Frognation asks developers to be open-handed, and allow for creative licence as opposed to pushing for a strictly literal translation. Given how dear theSoulsgames are to you do you struggle with ceding that control?
    HMI have these ideas that are very dear to me, but I don’t feel like projecting them onto a game would necessarily even be the most ideal way to present them. The creation of a game is a collaborative effort, so not only do I appreciate the input of Frognation, but also the programmers and designers that work on the game. One of the things I enjoy most about making games is seeing how it will all come out after everybody’s had their input. I really enjoy the process of having the English come back and seeing how it turned out and what parts were decorated in certain ways. There are even cases where the localised draft would come back and I’d adjust the Japanese script to reflect the parts that I feel are effective in English. So there are things that are core to me, but it’s not the goal to keep some sort of purity once the game is completely finished.
  • h
    hshiki
    有游戏不愿意弄,并不代表所有游戏都不愿意弄,以及没去弄。有游戏不想解释,也并不代表你就可以合理地否定其他游戏都不想解释。
  • J
    JoelBirch
    啊这,没必要吧
    非要说的话,我也倾向于楼上说的,不死人自己还是有一些记忆和知识的,而且有识之士环伺,整出点背景太简单了,而且这些也并不一定就得是镌刻在物品上之类的,完全可以是脑内活动,当然非要说那拿到之后直接就有说明就太较真了,不过冒险嘛,可能人家实际回火鸡场的频率比你游玩过程多得多(菜啊
  • h
    hshiki
  • F
    FanKiE
    就是背后扛摄像机的人写的
  • 飞灾
    所以原案果然还是用日语写的,谢谢
  • h
    hamartia
    东西是给角色用的,说明是给玩家看的

    太过于执著一切的解释可能会产生悖论
    马里奥:“为什么某个家伙不按START键,我就没办法挪动第一步?”
  • 张威克
    你可以理解为主角是一个不死人肉兵器百科全书,在脑子里背了一本完整的兵器谱,以至于每捡到一把武器就能想起“这是谁的武器,这个人经常活动在哪里,这个人生前做过什么事”以及“以上这些信息都是我从谁谁谁那里听说来的”。

    至于你问我为什么这个不死人的脑容量这么大?我只能说你看他随身携带几十把长短各异的兵器,战斗时随时切换不也没人觉得奇怪吗